tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post3935820890610247642..comments2024-03-08T06:18:28.125+11:00Comments on Bronte Capital: The Microsoft-Google spat explainedJohn Hemptonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03766274392122783128noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-50659246753252291172011-02-16T15:04:16.241+11:002011-02-16T15:04:16.241+11:00Insane article.
Google "GOT" permissi...Insane article. <br /><br />Google "GOT" permission to use all the worlds data out there.... silly it beats every crap out of Google with the previous sentence.<br /><br />Read again if you don;t understandAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-78967259836615002872011-02-07T18:33:13.025+11:002011-02-07T18:33:13.025+11:00John, I think your use of the example of robots.tx...John, I think your use of the example of robots.txt files is entirely apropos here, but it rather underlines the legal position. No robots flags are, to say the least, not legally enforceable. The search engine companies respect them out of a general sense of courtesy, and a wish not to create badwill (which as I say, was potentially considerable in the early days of search engines), but if Google were to decide tomorrow that it was going to ignore robots.txt files there would be nothing legally preventing them.ddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-40620111003893714672011-02-07T08:00:19.370+11:002011-02-07T08:00:19.370+11:00@Anon 4:48 PM
Regarding "because google engin...@Anon 4:48 PM<br />Regarding "because google engineers repeatedly sent information to bing" - well, the engineers searched for things in Google and clicked on the top (rigged) Google result, and Internet Explorer sent that info back to Bing... That's the only truth to that statement. But all we are doing is describing the mechanism by which Google's results got to Bing.<br /><br />If you (or others) are sincerely confused (which I doubt), then you should go read the original description carefully:<br />http://searchengineland.com/google-bing-is-cheating-copying-our-search-results-62914<br /><br />BTW, that Jacques Mattheij thing is slightly amusing, but note that it does not actually show Bing search results. It just shows the Bing instructional copy.<br /><br />Slight tangent, but it's been coming up in these discussions: I have no clue what info Chrome and the Google Toolbar might be gathering. Curious to hear if anything interesting shakes out on those over the next few weeks, since I'm sure people are looking now.mkafkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00936857367126570730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-73604980752065534762011-02-06T16:48:51.224+11:002011-02-06T16:48:51.224+11:00@mkafka
No, those results ended up on bing becaus...@mkafka<br /><br />No, those results ended up on bing because google engineers repeatedly sent information to bing that if they typed a made up word they wanted to go to a specific website. <br /><br />Also: other than this being no news and a common practice (ie the same you'll get from the google toolbar and chrome), here's a new bit:<br /><br />Google apparently ignores Bing's robot.txt and crawls bing for search results. Go figure, awesome fingerpointing.<br /><br />http://jacquesmattheij.com/Bing+search+results+showing+up+in+GoogleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-69262221596279913142011-02-06T15:03:46.303+11:002011-02-06T15:03:46.303+11:00There's no need to be confused about this cont...There's no need to be confused about this controversy. Quite plainly, Google does not have an exclusive right to the knowledge, and hence must be guaranteed property rights to, the fact that as a user I find Z relevant to Y (even if Z is a "honeypot") if I choose to send this information to Bing.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-75865077181007566102011-02-05T19:22:54.673+11:002011-02-05T19:22:54.673+11:00I have been told by a friend (an computing academi...I have been told by a friend (an computing academic staff member at the Uni of Southamptom - I don't know if he's a professor or not) that the Google Toolbar acts in exactly the same way. Just as MS copy Google (and indeed, everyones) results through the clickstream, Google copy MS' results (and indeed, everyones) through the clickstream. He also said he thought Google had been doing this for longer than MS and that he thought this move was indicative of concern on the part of Google for their position in the search market (which puzzled me, since they seem entirely secure in their dominance - perhaps I'm out of touch).<br /><br />(Blank Xavier / Admin)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-54707048615635871272011-02-05T14:47:42.138+11:002011-02-05T14:47:42.138+11:00Haha... kidding with that ycombinator link right? ...Haha... kidding with that ycombinator link right? Follow it back and the original author says "If I could go back and change only one thing in my original story, I’d have made the headline "Google: Bing Is Cheating, Copying SOME Of Our Search Results."<br /><br />Not wholesale copying - just keeping an eye on what users do on Google, and using that (weak) signal when Bing can't figure out another appropriate result. <br /><br />But again, cut through all the doublespeak and read the experiment - the results ended up on Bing ONLY because they were on Google. The results would NOT have appeared had they NOT been on Google (since they were bogus results to prove the point). That's a form of copying, factually speaking.mkafkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00936857367126570730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-89460108919672009022011-02-05T07:45:59.717+11:002011-02-05T07:45:59.717+11:00Even the blog that originally posted the "che...Even the blog that originally posted the "cheating" accusation has now had a change of heart: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2180787Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-43382245311661006942011-02-05T04:29:10.115+11:002011-02-05T04:29:10.115+11:00A well-written analysis. Great post.A well-written analysis. Great post.chrispycrunchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06508448472827541229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-50862039497560297322011-02-05T03:16:55.987+11:002011-02-05T03:16:55.987+11:00@mkafka - uhm, the consensus on all the techie sit...@mkafka - uhm, the consensus on all the techie sites I follow is the this is GOOG pulling a stupid PR stunt. <br /><br />@John - don't worry, you're still the best, even if you're dead wrong on this one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-50230098316369255992011-02-05T00:50:50.392+11:002011-02-05T00:50:50.392+11:00Dear reader who is walking away. In this case I w...Dear reader who is walking away. In this case I will repeat my view about Microsoft. Another post coming up.<br /><br />And can you forgive a blogger the odd strong opinion.<br /><br />JJohn Hemptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03766274392122783128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-56104821118821837502011-02-05T00:31:30.805+11:002011-02-05T00:31:30.805+11:00John,
I was with you when you were explaining you...John,<br /><br />I was with you when you were explaining your point of view in a logical manner but as soon as the words like ‘criminal breach’ and ‘jury’ cropped-up I lost you. <br /><br />Unfortunately for me, I have learnt that histrionics are of not much use in real life except to turn away people. <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />AReaderWhoIsWalkingAwayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-85165604171181530592011-02-04T23:47:34.113+11:002011-02-04T23:47:34.113+11:00Fascinating. You've gotten quite the collectio...Fascinating. You've gotten quite the collection of pro-Microsoft comments, which is really not the view of the tech community overall. (I wonder if you have an odd set of followers, or if you've been targeted by MS PR flacks?)<br /><br />John, your understanding is exactly right - strip away the doubletalk and you find Bing was including results based on what users clicked in Google (if they had default IE settings). I have no idea if that is stealing or illegal, but it is certainly what we professionals call "LAME".<br /><br />Though I guess this undercuts those of us who thought B.I.N.G. stood for "But Its Not Google" :)mkafkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00936857367126570730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-54003387442316357962011-02-04T21:28:17.875+11:002011-02-04T21:28:17.875+11:00After reading the documents you linked, it looks t...After reading the documents you linked, it looks to me that some Bing users have opted to use a feature that has their current activity used to "improve" subsequent search results (perhaps for all users of Bing). This does not sound like a Google-specific feature. If I use search engine X -- not Google -- and send a letter to Steve Ballmer informing him that I searched for Y and subsequently clicked Z, I would certainly hope that Ballmer would update Bing to associate Y with Z. This is not theft, this is a service performed for the users convenience.Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-88824356677188739812011-02-04T07:22:12.487+11:002011-02-04T07:22:12.487+11:00John,
The fundamental mistake in your argument is...John,<br /><br />The fundamental mistake in your argument is this statement:<br /><br />"Its Google's results that Microsoft is copying."<br /><br />This is wrong because, it is the user, the person behind the computer, that decides which link to click. The information for which link to click came from the user's biological brain and not some silicon chip in a google data center. MS copied information from the user's human brain. <br /><br />In a way, what MS did is not much different than the way google's page rank mechanism worked. The page rank mechanism rates web pages base on links from other web sites. Ultimately, it is the web site operators (again human), that decides what links point to. Google is copying the web site operator's human brain.<br /><br />Circling back, Google _is_ presenting to the users a set of choice to choose from. That came from a Google data center. <br />In order to prove MS is copying Google, you have to demonstrate MS copied the set of choices google presented to the user (and not what the user choose to click on). <br /><br />Granted, the list google and other search engines presented to the user does influence the user's click choice. Is that sufficient to judge MS guility of copying from all search engines in the market place? Even when the key piece of information came from the user's brain?<br /><br />By the way, I don't have a dog in this. I think both MS and Goog are too big to be much better than QQQQ. Google maybe some what better because of Android.<br /><br />On the other hand, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are much more interesting! Since the beginning of 2009, I've read every one of your post. I'd love to read a follow up on your current thinking, maybe a reassessment of your orignal analysis.狂猪https://www.blogger.com/profile/16599529315620633684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-39094863135381400812011-02-04T06:01:37.725+11:002011-02-04T06:01:37.725+11:00Best analogy I've found so far: what Google is...Best analogy I've found so far: what Google is doing is like sending your business plan in dozens of plain envelopes to the competition, pay a number of folks to shove copies via underneath the door and insert some into the junkmail and then call the police to raid their offices, discovering - copies of my business plan! Shocking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-23692478759403690482011-02-04T04:16:57.092+11:002011-02-04T04:16:57.092+11:00Even Google engineers think the accusation is base...Even Google engineers think the accusation is baseless: http://www.quora.com/Did-Bing-intentionally-copy-Googles-search-resultsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-73856382880608261212011-02-04T04:15:47.251+11:002011-02-04T04:15:47.251+11:00Bing might not be cheating. Here is a different vi...Bing might not be cheating. Here is a different view of the same: http://www.seoindian.co.in/blog/is-bing-really-copying-content-from-googleBrianhttp://www.briang.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-79849420088419710922011-02-04T04:01:41.940+11:002011-02-04T04:01:41.940+11:00I still think there's a misunderstanding here....I still think there's a misunderstanding here.<br /><br />Microsoft is in no way copying Google search results. One of the many inputs they use to build their search engine index is observed user behavior from opt-in usability studies on *any* search. <br /><br />This is exactly what Google does in Chrome - they observe what you type in the address box and what you eventually click on.<br /><br />This is by no means the only information that informs the search index.<br /><br />But if someone - like Google - sets up an artificial situation where all the other inputs are nonexistent by design, and then feeds that specific data to the Microsoft search engine, that will be the only data the search engine has, and therefore that result will of course get top billing.<br /><br />I understand your concern about your business. Note that the robots.txt file has a very specific function - it instructs webcrawlers to voluntarily ignore part of your site. This is nothing either Google Chrome or the Bing Toolbar can know about, so they are not willfully infringing anything. There is an unsolved technical problem here - how would you protect links you don't want public? Note though that this problem is independent of this case - it exists for both Google and Microsoft and more generically anyone using any browser.<br /><br />Now, the weird thing here is that Google knows all this, it knows that they themselves are doing exactly the same and that their "experiment" was anything but scientific but designed to inject specific pairs into the Bing index. (Note also that they only succeeded for 7 out of a 100 attempts, which makes it very clear that Microsoft isn't copying Google but that Google worked very hard to whip up this PR storm).<br /><br />And yet they publish on a wide front an article that people who don't work in the industry will understand exactly as you have.<br /><br />Don't know about you, but that's pretty evil in my book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-28775963941963440902011-02-04T03:47:15.711+11:002011-02-04T03:47:15.711+11:00The authorized tracking of user clicks is not stea...The authorized tracking of user clicks is not stealing. <br /><br />If that's *all* that Bing did, it would be questionnable, but it still wouldn't be stealing. <br /><br />Stealing GOOG's data, or software, or algorithms is stealing. <br /><br />Improving your product through the observation of clickstream data is not. Not a single software engineer out of the dozen I called about this [most are MS haters to boot] agree with your sentiment, fwiw.<br /><br />Long GOOG and MSFT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-59858345410592103682011-02-04T02:01:09.046+11:002011-02-04T02:01:09.046+11:00John,
I think you're off base here because it...John,<br /><br />I think you're off base here because it is Google which is now the subject of greatest regulatory scrutiny on the Internet. Microsoft is simply collecting clickstream data that it has been given authorisation to collect. I imagine it also collects clickstream data at vertical search engines as well. This is not stealing. The are not scraping Google's site or content, they are tracking user clicks -authorised and anonymously. <br /><br />I sense your comments are motivated in large part by pre-conceived negative animus directed at Microsoft and its previous anti-competitive behaviour. For the record, I share those sentiments. But this issue is separate, both from an anti-trust and legal perspective.<br /><br />I have written a post which I believe better explains the background issues.<br /><br />http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011/02/is-bing-copying-google-search-results.html<br /><br />I look forward to your comments.<br /><br />EdwardEdward Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02467872782227916518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-30070764775832930572011-02-04T01:58:25.786+11:002011-02-04T01:58:25.786+11:00John,
Got to say I disagree with you on this one....John,<br /><br />Got to say I disagree with you on this one. (First time!)<br /><br />I looked up the Chrome privacy notice, you can turn off or "opt out" of providing usage statistics to Google.<br /><br />Assuming you haven't "opted out" then this applies: <br /><br />When you type URLs or queries in the address bar, the letters you type are sent to your default search engine so the Suggest feature can automatically recommend terms or URLs you may be looking for. If you choose Google as your search engine, Google Chrome will contact Google when it starts so as to determine the best local address to send search queries. <b>If you choose to share usage statistics with Google and you accept a suggested query or URL, Google Chrome will send that information to Google as well. You can disable this feature as explained here</b><br /><br />Interestingly enough, they then say, on the opt out page: <br /><br />Usage statistics contain aggregated information such as preferences, button clicks, and memory usage. It does not include web page URLs or any personal information. Crash reports contain system information at the time of the crash, and may contain web page URLs or personal information, depending on what was happening at the time of the crash.<br /><br />So if you search for something, they recommend a link and you click on it, they get that "click" info - but, forgive my cynicism, "they won't know the URL!" Just think about that for a second and how that compares to MSFT's clickstream usage, which has also been agreed to when you install the Bing bar.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents, and reading blog posts by 3rd party people that work in the search engine industry.Epicurioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16126591165038930794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-24760076081581688852011-02-04T00:14:12.255+11:002011-02-04T00:14:12.255+11:00Google has a right to have its search results not ...Google has a right to have its search results not copied.<br /><br />Through a complex mechanism (following Googles customers click streams) Microsoft is copying Googles search results.<br /><br />If General Electric releases a great result in its turbine business then there is NO right they have to force me not to use that result.<br /><br />If I use that result to buy Siemens I have breached no rights.<br /><br />Microsoft has crossed the line. It is now a criminal organization.<br /><br />JJohn Hemptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03766274392122783128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-78195151869905100722011-02-04T00:11:49.570+11:002011-02-04T00:11:49.570+11:00I disagree strongly John.
You're arguing that...I disagree strongly John.<br /><br />You're arguing that inferring rules from observed human behaviour should be illegal.<br /><br />For instance suppose a fund manager notices that whenever a particular company reports a strong result, over the next few days its competitors will perform strongly on market because lots of people buy the competitor. This is just like noticing that just after someone has typed "XYZ" into a search box, they click on a particular link.<br /><br />Suppose you notice the company performing well. You predict over the next couple of days everyone will buy into the competitor. You buy the stock and make lots of money.<br /><br />If Microsoft is stealing results then you're insider trading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4815867514277794362.post-84891375618889766092011-02-03T21:26:29.684+11:002011-02-03T21:26:29.684+11:00just an anecdote…i have accelerator addons to IE8 ...just an anecdote…i have <a href="http://ieaddons.com/en/accelerators/" rel="nofollow">accelerator addons to IE8</a> for 7 different search engines and prefer google; however, when i want to find a mauldin article by title at ritholtz’s blog, i have to use bing…its seldom on google’s first two pages of results…<br /><br />i wouldnt encumber my browser with all those search engines if i didnt see them working differentlyrjshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15681812432224138582noreply@blogger.com